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Books and Documents

Debating Islam

38 - COMMENTS

  • Dear Ghulam Ghaus Saheb, You have quoted a number of comments from classical theologians which appear to be somewhat moderate in general. But on a closer look, these comments too seem to emanate from the same extremist mindset that prevails among other theologians, though an attempt has been made to sound reasonable.  You have also quoted some Ahadith that say that apostates were not sentenced to death for a variety of reasons. But the fact remains that despite clear Quranic teachings about freedom of religion, our jurists do not really believe in la ikraha fid Deen (Let there be on compulsion in religion, لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ.  Quran 2-256)” and Quran’s verse 18:29 wa man shaa’afalyomin, wamansha’afalyakfur. فَمَنۡ شَآءَ فَلۡيُؤۡمِنۡ وَّمَنۡ شَآءَ فَلۡيَكۡفُرۡ (“let him who please, believe, and let him who please, disbelieve.”) etc, including the ones you have quoted in your comments.

     

    Why is Hadith general given primacy over Quran in jurisprudence as well as common Muslim religious discourse is something beyond my understanding. You too quote Hadith first, and only then Quran, although Quran seems to prove your point of moderation much better. You are basically trying to say that classical theologians and jurists too favour religious freedom as does Quran. If that were the case, why would they be talking about punishment for apostasy and blasphemy at all. Why can’t they just affirm religious freedom for all in a simple statement, instead of going round and round trying to prove their convoluted points. If Quran does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy or blasphemy then where does the question arise from? Let us leave God’s job to God and not try to take his place. It’s not for us to make judgements on people’s beliefs.

    Let us stick to what has been said in the following Quranic verses:

    “There is no compulsion in religion;” (Quran 2:256)

    “Say, "The truth is from your Lord: Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject (it):” (Quran 18:29)

    “And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?” (Quran 10:99)

    “Therefore, do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;” (Quran 88:21–22)

    “He said: "O my people! …  shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it? (Quran 11:28)

    These verses are clear, no vagueness or allegory. The problem, of course, arises when they are juxtaposed with war-related verses, which are contextual in nature but are considered eternal in applicability by all jurists who consider Quran un-created, and like another God, Muslims have to believe in.

    By Sultan Shahin - 5/7/2019 3:41:32 AM



  • Naseer sb.'s groupings and subgroupings are totally senseless, arbitrary and invalid.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 5/6/2019 2:28:53 PM



  • Naseer sb. wrote, ""Anyone who rejects even one verse of the Quran is a Kafir." 
    Now he implies he did not really mean it. He attempts to pass off his lie by making abusive remarks about me. Does he really fool anyone?
    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 5/6/2019 2:03:24 PM



  • There is a sub group within the first group. They are those who do not act on what they believe to be true under one pretext or another such as:
    1. Believing g is more important and enough.
    2.  They apply a theory of exceptionalism and even of expediency.. By Naseer Ahmed - 5/6/2019 4:05:36 AM



  • Shahin sb, 

     The use of admittedly does not mean that the one who uses it is admitting to something. It is used “when you are agreeing that something is true, especially unwillingly”.

    In this case, I am saying unwillingly that Hamza sb is an ex-Muslim because of two reasons:

     1.       He has said so himself in the past

    2.       In every comment of his, he has cited a view which is extreme as true Islam, from which it is apparent that he rejects Islam.  A believer would cite an extreme view to reject it and not to claim that it is the true meaning.

     The use of the milder expressions of “admittedly” and “ex-Muslim” in place of “obviously” and “apostate” is because I respect him for his honesty and the fact that he is not a hypocrite like the others who uphold the extremist view as correct and doggedly reject the correct view to denigrate the Book and reject a part of it while falsely claiming to be believers. He also never argues for the sake of an argument. And nobody among the apostates and Islamophobes have his depth of knowledge about what different scholars have said. As far as learning goes, he is more well-read than any of us and his knowledge of Arabic is also superior to that of any of us. He is a learned man but unfortunately, he does not use his learning to reject the scholars rather than the Book. He should use his learning to more correctly understand the Book rather than take the same position as the rest of the Muslims that the scholars must be right.

     We have three broad groups of Muslims:

     1.    1. Those who say the scholars are right and follow in letter and spirit what the scholars have said. We call them extremists

    2.    2. Those who say the scholars are right and reject it. There are two sub-groups within this.

    2a) The more honest and bold people who have left Islam

    2b) The hypocrites who claim to be Muslim while rejecting a major part of the Quran.

    3.    3. Those who reject the scholars but not the Book and present a completely different picture of Islam. There are very few who fall in this category.

    By Naseer Ahmed - 5/6/2019 2:21:21 AM



  • See how GM sb lies  about the Quran and denigrate it to justify his apostasy?
    See how he sticks to the sick extremist view that 9:5 is about "killing the polytheists wherever you find them" and how he insinuates that I hold such a view when he knows very well that I don't nor is that what the verse means. He lies about every other verse. Nowhere have I said that homosexuals should be whiplashed or thieves amputated, or uppity wives beaten nor does the Quran say so. 
    GM sb is a determined apostate and a denigrator of the Quran and he lies through his teeth.
    By Naseer Ahmed - 5/6/2019 1:37:14 AM



  • Naseer sb. says, "Anyone who rejects even one verse of the Quran is a Kafir."

    Naseer sb. wants us to amputate the hands of thieves, whiplash homosexuals, beat uppity wives and "when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them". He wants us to do the things that he is not doing himself. If we refuse to do them, he will call us kafirs.

    I do refuse to do those things. Instead I prefer to read the Quran with discretion, distinguishing God's word's from the words that reflect 7th century Arab culture.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 5/4/2019 11:47:31 AM



  • Naseer Saheb, I am not speaking on beyof Hamza Saheb. You are. Admittedly means I admit. It doesn't mean he admits. Please consult some dictionary.  By Sultan Shahin - 5/4/2019 10:33:50 AM



  • Hamza sb,
    Thank you for your comment on Dr Tahirul Quadri's tafseer and pointing out his hypocrisy. By Naseer Ahmed - 5/4/2019 1:48:23 AM



  • Sultan Shahin sb,
    Why do you have to speak for Hamza sb? Has he appointed you as his lawyer? Let him speak for himself.
    I hope you understand the meaning of "admittedly". It means he has admitted it. Look for all his comments in the past and you will find him admitting it.
    As for me being called an apostate, why only the Wahhabi's? I guess people of every sect will do so as I reject every sect, their beliefs and their imams.
    When I call a person an apostate however, it is by the clear meaning of apostate in the Quran. Anyone who rejects even one verse of the Quran is a Kafir. A person may have doubts and ask questions seeking clarity but not reject it. My calling somebody an apostate, has no connection with who in turn calls me one.
    By Naseer Ahmed - 5/4/2019 1:29:34 AM



  • Dear Kaniz Fatma, 
    Hadith with rank of Khabre Wahid can't make any specification [takhsees] or Taqeeid in the words of Quran. This is very popular and basic method of Hanafi Jurists. You must have read it in your first book of Usul Fiqh. 
    Khabre wahid Hadith gives zanni knowledge and the Quranic words are Qatii and zanni can't make any sort of specification in Qataii, 
    As for Hudud, khabre wahid does not make any had. 
    This is not convincing reply to you, as this subject requires detailed answer. 
    By GGS - 5/3/2019 2:33:28 AM



  • Dear Kaniz Fatma,

    A number of Islamic scholars consider apostasy a hadd (a crime with a scripturally prescribed punishment), however this view has been opposed by Hanafi and Shafii jurists and some scholars of Maliki jurisprudence.

    The reason of punishing apostates was to save the community and Islamic state from their fitna wa fasad and not their converting to disbelief. The ruling of punishing apostates was implemented by the king of Islamic State and individuals were not allowed to take this law in their hands.

    However, modern classical jurists do not favour application of punishing even seditious apostates living in democratic countries for several reasons. They say in this age apostasy has become common. A large number of sects have come into existence and are creating fitna and doing hostile campaigns against one another. House after house is subjected to venom or influence of apostasy. Despite that they suggest something different from punishment, that is, one should be away from apostates in every matter.

    For example, Mufti Sadrus Sharia writes in his book “Bahare Shariat”,

    ‘‘مرتد کو قید کرنا اور اسلام نہ قبول کرنے پر قتل کر ڈالنا بادشاہ اسلام کا کام ہے اور اس سے مقصود یہ ہے کہ ایساشخص اگر زندہ رہا اور اس سے تعرض نہ کیا گیا(3) تو ملک میں    طرح طرح کے فساد پیدا ہونگے اور فتنہ کا سلسلہ روز بروز ترقی پذیر ہوگا جس کی  وجہ سے امن عامہ میں    خلل پڑیگا لہٰذا ایسے شخص کو ختم کر دینا ہی مقتضائے حکمت(4) تھا۔ اب چونکہ حکومت اسلام ہندوستان میں    باقی نہیں  کوئی روک تھام کرنے والا باقی نہ رہا ہر شخص جو چاہتا ہے بکتا ہے اور آئے دن مسلمانوں  میں    فساد پیدا ہوتا ہے نئے نئے مذہب پیدا ہوتے رہتے ہیں  ایک خاندان بلکہ بعض جگہ ایک گھر میں    کئی مذہب ہیں  اور بات بات پر جھگڑے لڑائی ہیں  ان تمام خرابیوں  کا باعث یہی نیا مذہب ہے ایسی صورت میں    سب سے بہتر ترکیب وہ ہے جو ایسے وقت کے لیے قرآن وحدیث میں    ارشاد ہوئی اگر مسلمان اس پر عمل کریں  تمام قصوں  سے نجات پائیں  دنیا وآخرت کی  بھلائی ہاتھ آئے۔ وہ یہ ہے کہ ایسے لوگوں  سے بالکل میل جول چھوڑ دیں  ، سلام کلام ترک کر دیں  ، ان کے پاس اٹھنا بیٹھنا، ان کے ساتھ کھانا پینا، ان کے یہاں  شادی بیاہ کرنا، غرض ہر قسم کے تعلقات ان سے قطع (5)کر دیں  گو یا سمجھیں  کہ وہ اب رہا ہی نہیں  ، واللہ  الموفق’’  

    By GGS - 5/3/2019 2:28:27 AM



  • Thank you GGS, your posts have been very helpful.  By Sultan Shahin - 5/2/2019 8:00:14 PM



  • How to deal with apostasy? This question must be answered by 21st century jurists, not by 7th century jurists. By the way, freedom of belief is guaranteed by the constitutions of all modern civilized countries as well as by the United Nations' "Universal Declaration of Human Rights".

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 5/2/2019 12:54:54 PM



  • Dear GGS, Does the subject of apostasy fall under hudud?
    Can a hadith of khabre wahid make hudud?
    By Kaniz Fatma - 5/2/2019 5:16:50 AM



  • A popular classical Hanafi Jurist, Imam Ibnul Humam writes in his book Fathul Qadir (the commentary on Hidaya),

    يجب في القتل بالردة أن يكون لدفع شر حرابه لا جزاء على فعل الكفر لأن جزاءه أعظم من ذالك عند الله تعالى. فيختص بمن يتأتى منه الحراب ، وهو الرجل ولهذا نهى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عن قتل النساء ....ولهذا قلنا: لو كانت المرتدة ذات رأي وتبع تقتل لا لردتها بل لأنها حينئذ تسعى في الأرض بالفساد

    Translation: “The reason to kill an apostate is only with the intent to eliminate the danger of war, and not for the reason of his disbelief. The punishment of disbelief is far greater with God. Therefore, only such an apostate shall be killed who is actively engaged in war; and usually it is a man, and not a woman. For the same reason, the Holy Prophet has forbidden to kill women. And for this very reason, an apostate female could be killed if she in fact instigates and causes war by her influence and armed force at her disposal. She is not killed because of her apostasy, but for her creating disorder (through war) on earth.” (Fathul Qadeer)

    Another leading classical Hanafi jurist of the fifth century Hijra, Imam Al-Sarkhasi writes in his book “Al-Mabsut vol. 10, p.110)

    وأصل الكفر من أعظم الجنايات ولكنها بين العبد وبين ربه فالجزاء عليها مؤخر إلى دار الجزاء وما عجل في الدنيا سياسات مشروعة لمصالح تعود إلى العباد كالقصاص لصيانة النفوس وحد الزنا لصيانة الأنساب والفرش وحد السرقة لصيانة الأموال وحد القذف لصيانة الأعراض وحد الخمر لصيانة العقول وبالاصرار على الكفر يكون محاربا للمسلمين فيقتل لدفع المحاربة إلا أن الله تعالى نص على العلة في بعض المواضع بقوله تعالى (فإن قاتلوكم فاقتلوهم) وعلى السبب الداعي إلى العلة في بعض المواضع وهو الشرك فإذا ثبت أن القتل باعتبار المحاربة وليس للمرأة بنية صالحة للمحاربة فلا تقتل في الكفر الأصلى ولا في الكفر الطارئ ولكنها تحبس. (المبسوط للسرخسي ج 10 ص 110، دار المعرفة، بيروت لبنان)  

    Translation: “to disbelieve is no doubt a very grave sin, but it is a matter between God and His servant. Hence, its punishment shall be in the life Hereafter. The corporal punishments that are given in this world are ordained to protect the rights of other human beings, such as the punishment of ‘qisas’ [the law of retaliation for murder or physical injuries] is to protect life; punishment for ‘Zina’ [adultery and fornication] is to protect family lineage; punishment for ‘Sirqa’ [theft] is to protect the property of others; punishment of ‘Qadhaf’ [defamation] is to protect honour and reputation of others; and punishment for “khumr” [use of intoxicants] is to protect mental health in society. When a person who insists on “disbelief” is engaged in armed struggle against Muslims from the evil consequences of war, he is killed. At places God has clearly stated the immediate cause of protection from the evil effects of the war. for example, he says, “   “ and at other places, He gives the reason (of shirk) that leads them to war. thus on the one hand it is established that the reason to kill is armed conflict and on the other hand it is known that woman is not by nature capable of waging armed attacks; therefore, she is killed neither for her disbelief nor for here apostasy” (Al-Mabsut vol 10, p.110)

    By Ghulam Ghaus Siddiqi غلام غوث الصديقي - 5/2/2019 4:49:27 AM



  • Dear Sultan Shahin Sb, The subject of apostasy is controversial in its details over punishment. Was punishment of apostasy as a result of treason or simply leaving the religion? Is leaving the religion punishable in the world or the Hereafter?  

    The Quran discusses apostasy in several verses. Some of them are as follows;

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِيمَانِهِمْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُوا كُفْرًا لَّن تُقْبَلَ تَوْبَتُهُمْ وَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الضَّالُّونَ

    Translation: “Indeed, those who reject the message after their belief and then increase in disbelief - never will their [claimed] repentance be accepted, and they are the ones astray”. (3:90)

    سَتَجِدُونَ آخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَن يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُوا قَوْمَهُمْ كُلَّ مَا رُدُّوا إِلَى الْفِتْنَةِ أُرْكِسُوا فِيهَا ۚ فَإِن لَّمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُوا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ وَيَكُفُّوا أَيْدِيَهُمْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ ۚ وَأُولَـٰئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانًا مُّبِينًا

    Translation: “You will now find others who desire that they should be safe from you and also safe from their own people; whenever their people turn them towards war, they fall headlong into it; so if they do not avoid (confronting) you nor submit an offer of peace nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and they are the ones against whom We have given you clear authority.” (4:91)

    لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا قَدْ كَفَرْتُم بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ ۚ إِن نَّعْفُ عَن طَائِفَةٍ مِّنكُمْ نُعَذِّبْ طَائِفَةً بِأَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا مُجْرِمِينَ

    Translation: “Do not feign excuses, you have turned disbelievers after becoming Muslims”; if We forgive some of you (who kept quiet and repented), We shall punish others because they were criminals”. (9:66)

    مَن كَفَرَ بِاللَّـهِ مِن بَعْدِ إِيمَانِهِ إِلَّا مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالْإِيمَانِ وَلَـٰكِن مَّن شَرَحَ بِالْكُفْرِ صَدْرًا فَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ مِّنَ اللَّـهِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

    Translation: “He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement” (16:106)

    ..........

    Some of the Ahadith that discuss punishment for apostasy are as follows;

    The Messenger of Allah said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154)

    Hazrat Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him” (Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260)

    A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." (Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271)

    ................

    Some Ahadith that state apostates were not sentenced to death

    A man from among the Ansar accepted Islam, then he apostatized and went back to Shirk. Then he regretted that, and sent word to his people (saying): 'Ask the Messenger of Allah [peace be upon him], is there any repentance for me?' His people came to the Messenger of Allah [peace be upon him] and said: 'So and so regrets (what he did), and he has told us to ask you if there is any repentance for him?' Then the Verses: 'How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their Belief up to His saying: Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful' was revealed. So he sent word to him, and he accepted Islam. (Al-Sunan al-Sughra 37:103)

    There was a Christian who became Muslim and read the Baqarah and the Al Imran, and he used to write for the Prophet. He then went over to Christianity again, and he used to say, Muhammad does not know anything except what I wrote for him. Then Allah caused him to die and they buried him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:814)

    A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the bedouin got a fever where upon he said to the Prophet "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge.' But the Prophet refused. Then (the bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said: "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good." (Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:316)

    ..................

    Those who state that punishment for apostasy should not be given in the world cite the following Quranic verses;

    “There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.” (Quran 2:256)

    “Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!” (Quran 18:29)

    “And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?” (Quran 10:99)

    “Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them;” (Quran 88:21–22)

    “He said: "O my people! See ye if (it be that) I have a Clear Sign from my Lord, and that He hath sent Mercy unto me from His own presence, but that the Mercy hath been obscured from your sight? shall we compel you to accept it when ye are averse to it? (Quran 11:28)

    The scholars both classical and modern unanimously agree that apostates will be punished in the Hereafter. However they differ when being asked about whether the apostates should be punished in the world or not or if the punishment of apostasy is merely a result of treason or not?

    By Ghulam Ghaus Siddiqi غلام غوث الصديقي - 5/2/2019 4:09:35 AM



  • Dear Sultan Shahin sb, our muftis issue fatwas on zahir. 
    When being asked about Baatin, they say it is up to Allah to know what is in their baatin. 
    Naseer sb has become "mufti sahab" so he has issued his fatwa on zahir without knowing baatin. 
    By GGS - 5/1/2019 11:36:33 PM



  • Dear GGS, is there any basis in Quran and Sunnah for these" Rules of Punishment including apostasy". By Sultan Shahin - 5/1/2019 9:41:32 PM



  • Rules of Punishment including apostasy are not applicable in democratic countries.
    In Islamic State, apostasy is considered akin to rebellion against Islamic State. 

    By GGS - 5/1/2019 5:40:08 AM



  • Dear Mr. Qaseem, what is the basis in Quran and Sunnat for the following statement you have made: "NOW YOU SAY WE SHOULDN'T BRAND ANY ONE APOSTATE  UNTIL HE OR SHE DECLARES, HIMSELF OR HERSELF, THAT HE/SHE LEFT ISLAM, doesn't sound correct. For, if a person commits kufr, he is a kafir whether he confesses it or not. The Qazi should arrest him, give him 3 days' period to reassess himself and declare whether he insists on his kufr or not. If he insists, he be punished or be released otherwise." By Sultan Shahin - 4/30/2019 8:28:17 PM



  • Dear Naseer Saheb, I don't understand why you have to admit on behalf of Hamza Saheb that he is an ex- Muslim. Has he appointed you his lawyer? I think he is quite capable of declaring his own belief system. 
    I am certain Naseer Saheb that any Wahhabi or Taimi will consider you an apostate merely for exercising your mind, for thinking new thoughts, for seeking to find new meanings of Quranic terminology. For them all those who are not Ahle Hadees are apostates, kafirs and/or Mushrik. 
    However, neither Quran nor Sunnah has given any one the right to judge. God has not appointed any viceroys on earth. Let us at least on New Age Islam desist from calling each other names. Let God do his job on the Day of Judgment.
    By Sultan Shahin - 4/30/2019 7:23:15 AM



  • Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri                    And keep fighting against them until the disruption and mischief is totally eliminated and the Din (Religion) practically becomes subservient to Allah alone (i.e., the system of the protection of peace, security and human rights is practically established). But if they desist, then offensive action is not permissible except against the wrongdoers (i.e., transgressors).


    By Naseer Ahmed - 4/30/2019 1:01:13 AM

    Minhaj-ul-Quran by Dr Tahirul Qadri:

    2:193. “Aur unse jang karte raho hatta ki koi fitna baqi na rahe aur deen yani zindagi aur bandgi ka nizam amalan Allah hi ke tabe ho jaye, phir agar who baaz Aa jayen to sewai zaalimon ke kisi par zyadti rawa nahin.”

    In his note on the above verse 2:193 Dr Tahirul Qadri says, “Jihad aur inqilabi jadd-o-jahad deeni fareeza hain. Aur fitna-e-batil ke mukammal khatma aur qiyam-e-amn tak inqilabi jang jari rahni chaahiye. Ghalba aur nifaz-e-deen (Islam’s domination and the implementation of the Islamic Sharia- emphasis mine) Jihad aur inqilabi jang ki aakhri manzil hai. Haan agar mukhalif quwwaten fitna parwari se baaz aajayen to unpar sakhti na ki jaye.

    Any person having sufficient knowledge of Islam and jihad can easily understand what Dr Tahirul Qadri actually understands by the word ‘fitna’ in verse 2:193, though he has used carefully selected and sugar-quoted words and phrases to hide the real purpose of offensive Jihad which, according to his own statement is “the ultimate domination of Islam and implementation of its Sharia all over the world.”

    By Abdul Rehman Hamza - 4/30/2019 6:51:58 AM



  • I can understand Hamza sb sticking to the bigoted view because he is admittedly an ex-Muslim. Yet I would like to remind him that the meaning of "Deen of Allah" is the “Law of Allah” common for all mankind including the believers and the disbelievers and is briefly “no injustice, oppression and compulsion in religion". 

     He is right about Javed Ghamidi and Maulana Waheeduddin Khan and I have refuted their views in my article:  The Importance of Getting the Story Right on the Divine Plan Allah

     There are 15 translations below which explain the meaning of “Deen of Allah” in the verse. It is no more than the right and freedom to worship Allah without being persecuted or a way of life that is “without injustice, oppression and compulsion in religion”. For Shahin sb and others who are knowledgeable and educated, citing what others say is only to support their own view, because these people are capable of independently arriving at their own view. What others say cannot be an excuse for holding a particular view.

     Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar   And fight them until there be no persecution, and the way of life be for God. Then, if they refrained themselves, then, there is to be no deep seated dislike, but against the ones who are unjust. Fight aggression.

    The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab   Fight against them ˹if they persecute you˺ until there is no more persecution, and ˹your˺ devotion will be to Allah ˹alone˺. If they stop ˹persecuting you˺, let there be no hostility except against the aggressors.

    Ahmed Ali                  Fight them till sedition comes to end, and the law of God (prevails). If they desist, then cease to be hostile, except against those who oppress.

    Ali Ünal                      (But if they persist in causing disorder, continue to) fight against them until there is no longer disorder rooted in rebellion against God, and the religion (the right for worship and the authority to order the way of life is recognized) for God. However, if they desist, then there is no hostility except to the wrongdoers.

    Shabbir Ahmed                     And fight the aggressors until persecution is eliminated and there remains no compulsion or coercion in religion, the freedom that Allah has ordained (2:256). Anyone accepting the DEEN of Allah must do so freely and for His sake alone. ('Lillah' = For Allah's sake alone). And if the aggressors desist, then let there be no hostility except against those who displace peace with warfare. ('Zulm' = Displace something from its rightful place = Replace good with evil = Oppression = Relegation of the Truth = Violation of human rights = Doing wrong to oneself or others).

    Syed Vickar Ahamed             And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution and injustice. And justice and faith in Allah continues; But if they cease, let there be no hostile acts except against those who (always) practice (hostilities and) injustice.

    Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)                 Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

    Dr. Munir Munshey               Fight (and confront) them till corruption and repression cease, and until faith in Allah (and justice) prevails! But if they desist, then let there be no aggression, except against the oppressors.

    A.L. Bilal Muhammad et al (2018)                And fight against them until there is no more oppression, and justice prevails, as does faith in God. But if they cease, let there be no hostility to any except those who practice oppression.    

    [The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)                  And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

    Mohammad Shafi                 And fight with them until persecution exists no more, and the way of life leading to Allah is enabled. And if they refrain, no hostility shall there be, except against the persecutors.

    Bijan Moeinian                      Continue fighting with the disbelievers until you succeed in establishing the Lord’s laws on earth. If they stop trouble making, leave them alone. Only those among them who are guilty of cruelty and brutality should be brought to justice.

    Rashad Khalifa                      You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

    Amatul Rahman Omar                      And fight them until persecution is no more and religion is (freely professed) for Allah. But if they desist (from hostilities) then (remember) there is no punishment except against the unjust (who still persist in persecution).

    Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri                    And keep fighting against them until the disruption and mischief is totally eliminated and the Din (Religion) practically becomes subservient to Allah alone (i.e., the system of the protection of peace, security and human rights is practically established). But if they desist, then offensive action is not permissible except against the wrongdoers (i.e., transgressors).

    By Naseer Ahmed - 4/30/2019 1:01:13 AM



  • Islam is our mazhab or faith. We adopt the faith to make us better persons and to make our societies better societies, but we should not crave for a regimented, rule-bound and Sharia-bound Orwellian "way of life" dystopia. God's greatest gift to us is our freedom. Let us not be enslaved by a Deen.

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 4/29/2019 12:43:19 PM



  • Naseer sb.'s preferred translation does not make things any better.  If one says, "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah," what does one mean? Have tumult and oppression ceased? Do justice and faith in Allah prevail now? Can we stop fighting now? If not now, when?

    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 4/29/2019 12:30:44 PM



  • Bring back the glorious days of Islam - the Muʿtazila Period

    By ashish - 4/29/2019 9:37:54 AM



  • Dīn (دين, also anglicized as Deen) is a Persian word, commonly associated with Zoroastrianism and Islam, but it is also used in Sikhism and Arab Christian worship. The term is loosely associated with religion, but in the Qur'an, it means the way of life in which righteous Muslims must adopt to comply with divine law (Quran and sunnah), or Shari'a, and to the divine judgment or recompense to which all humanity must inevitably face without intercessors before God.[1] Thus, although secular Muslims would say that their practical interpretation of Dīn conforms to "religion" in the restricted sense of something that can be carried out in separation from other areas of life, both mainstream and reformist Muslim writers take the word to mean an all-encompassing way of life carried out under the auspices of God's divine purpose as expressed in the  Qur'an and hadith. As one notably progressive Muslim writer puts it, far from being a discrete aspect of life carried out in the mosque, "Islam is Dīn, a complete way of life".- Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

     Muhammad Asad, who converted from Judaism to Islam and is considered to be an expert in Arabic language and Islamic theology, apart from being one of the most progressive muslim exegetes of the Quran,has translated and explained the verse 2:193 in the same way,

     

    2:193. Hence, fight against them untill there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone. In his note 170 on the above phrase he writes,

    Note 170. Lit.,” and religion belongs to God (alone)” – i.e. until God can be worshipped without fear of persecution, and none is compelled to to bow down in awe before another human being. The term din in this context more suitably translated as “worship” in as much as it comprises here both the doctrinial and the moral aspects of religion: that is to say, man’s faith as well as the obligations arising from that faith. --The message of the Quran by Muhammad Asad.

    The English word "religion" is translated into Arabic by Deen. Nonetheless, the Arabic language is rich, so this word has many meanings such as: “a particular law”, “a statute” “an ordinance”, “recompense”, “judgement”, “reckoning”, etc. but when the preposition “la” or “laam   is  used with deen , ( i.e. Ad-Deen), it particularly means, “obedience”.  See the following verses::

     (Qur’an10:22, Qur’an16:52, Qur’an29:65, Qur’an31:32, Qur’an39:2, 39:11, Qur’an40:14, Quran 40:65, Qur’an98:5) which means: “Ad-Deen (i.e. obedience] is only to Allah) – Free online Islamic Encyclopedia.

     

    Now,  let us examine how should we  honestly translate this phrase in the Quran critically in accordance with the Arabic grammer.

    Wa yakoon-Ad-deenu lillah =

    Wa = and

    Yakoona = is or becomes

    Ad-Deen = religion or worship

    Lillah =  for Allah  ( Li = for ,  Allah = Allah )

    It is quite obvious that there is no room at all for translating the phrase as,  “and there prevail justice and faith in Allah” as Abdullah Usuf Ali has translated or “  i.e. until God can be worshipped without fear of persecution, and none is compelled to to bow down in awe before another human being” as allegorically explained by Mohd Asad.

    Dr Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is a well-known Pakistani Muslim theologian, Quran scholar and exegete.  He is not an imitator.  He reaches conclusions which are similar to those of Islamic modernists and progressives on the subject, within the traditional Islamic framework.

    If, after dedicating  the whole of his life for the defense of Islam, he reaches the conclusion that, “there are certain directives of the Qur'an pertaining to war which were specific only to the Prophet Muhammad and certain specified peoples of his times (particularly the progeny of Abraham: the Ishmaelites, the Israelites, and the Nazarites). Thus, the Prophet and his designated followers waged a war against Divinely specified peoples of their time (the polytheists and the Israelites and Nazarites of Arabia and some other Jews, Christians, et al.) as a form of Divine punishment and asked the polytheists of Arabia for submission to Islam as a condition for exoneration and the others for jizya and submission to the political authority of the Muslims for exemption from death punishment and for military protection as the dhimmis of the Muslims.”

    Similarly, Maulana Wahiduddin Khan says in his tafseer , Tazkeer-ul- Quran commenting on 2:193 “Aur unse lado yahan tak ki fitna baqi na rahe aur deen Allah ka ho jaye” ka matlab yeh hai ki sarzameen-e-Arab se shirk ka khatma ho jaye aur deen-e-Tauheed ke sewa koi deen wahan baqi na rahe. Is hukm ke zariae Allah Ta’la ne Arab ko Tauheed ka da’imee markaz bana diya.

    By Abdul Rehman Hamza - 4/29/2019 9:00:04 AM



  • sECOND Khalifa Mr.Umar was in conversation with the governor of Syria. The Governor told him that he had killed one person for becoming apostate. Umar did not punish him. In islam apostacy is punishable with capital punishment, it is in fact practiced in many Islamic countries. By Dr.A.Anburaj - 4/29/2019 4:01:52 AM



  • Ali because he lived the life which might be according to the original Quran!, I can say some how Ali's life was preserved to send true message of love, campassion and truth which he and his family would have lived as per some truth. --------------------------------- Totally false statement. Ali had believed that Idolators must be killed. Non-Muslims must be killed.He had no love for Non-Muslims. By Dr.A.Anburaj - 4/29/2019 3:47:28 AM



  • Mr Lazer  your curtly commented against Hinduism-Hindu culture. Indian scriptures does not divide peoples based on Language,race religious denominations etc. Lord Sri Krishna and Sri Rama makes no reference  to Islam and Christianity. Here "war" is between Justice and injustice/evil verses Good etc. Please mind your words. Please go through Sri Bhagavad Gita  and Thirukkural ( Tamil)  and you could recognise the real teaching.
    By Dr.A.Anburaj - 4/29/2019 3:40:16 AM



  • Seven parallel translations of Sura Baqra Verse 193

    Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)

     وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّىٰ لَا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلَّـهِ ۖ فَإِنِ انتَهَوْا فَلَا عُدْوَانَ إِلَّا عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿١٩٣﴾

    Sahih International: Fight them until there is no [more] Fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

    Pickthall: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

    Yusuf Ali: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

    Shakir: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

    Muhammad Sarwar: Fight them so that there will be no disbelief in God and God's religion will become dominant. If they change their behavior, there would be no hostility against anyone except the unjust.

    Mohsin Khan: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

    Arberry: Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers

    By Sultan Shahin - 4/29/2019 2:53:08 AM



  • Every day I watch stories of Hinduism on TV channels full of violence and war and killing By Lazer - 4/28/2019 11:28:16 AM



  • The Pope has declared that the Bible is NOT infallible and must NOT be taken literally
    It is impossible to see the Quran as uncreated, because it deals with specific isssues like Mohd marrying his daughter in law Zaynab - would the  eternal almighty even bother about such matters ?
    Like the Bible, the  Quran was modified for about 200 years for political reasons\
    There are multiple versions of the Quran , such as recently discovered early versions from Yemen
    By Shanbarani - 4/28/2019 7:12:12 AM



  • Although this subject has been covered numerous times, Shahin sb sticks to the distortions by the bigoted scholars and not to the meaning of the verses as can be clearly determined. Shahin sb is certainly not incapable of deciding for himself what the correct meaning is but for some reason, he prefers to go by the "consensus view" which is not even the consensus view. Is  NAI a supporter of the "consensus view"? 

    To take just one example, the correct translations of verse 2:193 is not:

    “Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.” but as more correctly translated by Yusuf Ali:

    (2:193) And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

    The meaning of "fitna" is clearly oppression because of which if they cease fighting, there is to be no more aggression except against the oppressors alone.

    "Until worship is for Allah" only is not there at all. The same portion is translated by Yusuf Ali as "and there prevail justice and faith in Allah" which is quite different from  "until worship is only for Allah"

    The Arabic words are :wayakūna l-dīnu lillahi and Yusuf Ali's translation is accurate. Remember that the deen of Allah includes "no compulsion in religion".

    On the one hand there is a dogged refusal to accept the correct meaning and ready acceptance of the distorted translations by the bigots which begs the question 'what is the motive in doing so except deliberate derogation of the Quran?'


    By Naseer Ahmed - 4/28/2019 1:32:42 AM



  • No one should be branded an apostate for doing that until he or she himself or herself declares that he has left Islam. 
    UNQUOTE:Dear Sultan Shaheen, after reading your long treatise in this link, I could gather that you discussed most of those 'mutashabihaat' that the people in different ages went through, got confused then either rebelled against Quran and Islam or left it quietly.
    Let me remind you that whosoever paddled in the strange waters of Mutashabihaat was bound to be confused to go in the catagory of MAN SHAZZA SHUZZA FINNAR.
    NOW YOU SAY WE SHOULDN'T BRAND ANY ONE APOSTATE  UNTIL HE OR SHE DECLARES, HIMSELF OR HERSELF, THAT HE/SHE LEFT ISLAM, doesn't sound correct. For, if a person commits kufr, he is a kafir whether he confesses it or not. The Qazi should arrest him, give him 3 days' period to reassess himself and declare whether he insists on his kufr or not. If he insists, he be punished or be released otherwise.
    In these days, there is no system of qazi and people like Ismay'eel Dehlavi, Nazeer Hussain Dehlavi, Qasim Nan Tawi, Sir Syed, Shibli Nomani, Abul Kalam Azad, Ghulam Pervaiz, Maududi etc committed kufr/s without any apprehension, lived for a period and died, leaving behind their fitnas in the ummah to reach each others' throats. This doesn't mean they were not apostates. 
    By Qaseem - 4/27/2019 9:48:50 PM



  • Its is shamelessness by Sultan shahin to defend those verses which creates violence and bloodshed of non-Muslims by saying that verses were time bound but we will keep in Quran.
    Sultan Shahin has same arrogance which Ghandhi had, because Ghandhi rejected the idea of burning Manusmruti publicly to move Hindu region forward and progressive.
    Ghandhi's Arrogance was more than Ambedkar love to keep and review all Hindus.
    At the end Ambedkar also ended of leading new Arrogance of hatred towards Hindus. 
    So called self declared Moderate Muslims can see themselves in shoes of Ghandhi and Ex-Muslims in shoes Ambedkar.
    It utterly shameless of Muslim that not to publicly condem Sura Tuba on the contrary they keep on defending or remain shut or egoistic person like Sultan Shain will keep on defending it by that those verses were time specific.
    In the age internet we all know how Sura Tuba came into existence at last moment suddenly old man coming into picture from no where that how losley this verse was added, what else lies were added is even now more doubtful also copy of Quran from Hfsa( Wife of Mouhmad) is copy and it was confiscated as soon she died by milatry which even tells, why so much insecurity was there in mind of Usman to take that copy and burn it down.
    This all is enough to tell that how Poltical was people became Muslim to get the power.
    Only one person can be followed in the history of Muslim(not even courrpted Quran and tame life of Mohmmad which Muslims did themselves) is Ali because he lived the life which might be according to the original Quran!, I can say some how Ali's life was preserved to send true message of love, campassion and truth which he and his family would have lived as per some truth.
    By Aayina - 4/26/2019 4:43:44 PM



  • Dear Sultan Shahin Saheb,
    Thanks a lot for your erudite and thoughtful discussion of a difficult subject.
    My concern is with the upcoming generation of Muslims who will be much better educated than ever before and, with the plentiful availability of the translations of the Quran, better acquainted with the actual contents than our forefathers. Nearly 20 to 30% of American Muslims call themselves ex-Muslims now and this number is bound to rise. We should of course care about what is it that turns them off and whether something can be done about it. If something needs to be done then man and his intellect have to be central to the process. This means rationality and common sense have to be our guides in examining each verse to see if it accords with our concept of God as a majestic figure full of grace and mercy. Also, God's words, by that very definition, must be timeless.
    I have used the word "overinclusion" rather than "implantation" because I do not think any verses were fraudulently implanted. The Prophet never lied deliberately. Whether some of his own thoughts or words, uttered in the heat of the battle, were included by the compilers as being divine because of his immense stature is debatable. The inspired character of earlier verses may be a good guide for us for purposes of comparison. Let us remember that God's message to Moses could fill only one page. Jesus's Sermon on the Mount can be told in four or five pages.
    I do not think achieving a consensus on this subject is possible but the fact that different views can be expressed without being charged with blasphemy or apostasy is a major advance.
    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 4/26/2019 12:39:50 PM