@Sadaf. 1. Your statement, “As for Satwa,he is a fraud. Posing as an intellectual he is a low caste Marathi Manus, adrop out, and earns a living as RSS agent to infiltrate websites like these.For secular logic, I haven’t any concrete information as yet, but most probablyhe is a high caste Hindu, and just that.” is highly offensive indeed and Isuggest you seek their apology, or at least say that you wrote those words outof frustration over whatever you want to say. Are you in your 20's?
2. Finally I request you tointrospect and don’t lose direction by well/ill meaning broadsides. You haven’tread my article ref. Greater Jihad referenced below that concludes as follows:
“The condition of the minority Muslimcommunities in predominantly non-Muslim or secular countries – in many ways, isakin to those of the Meccan Muslims in the Prophet’s era. They remain utterlydeprived and marginalized as any realistic statistics on asset/ real estateownership, academic performance, and representation in administration, civilservice, armed forces, professions, upper echelons of corporate business world,and arts and sports arena is bound to reveal. This abysmal social, educational,cultural and performance decline together with the advent of militant jihad andthe cancerous outgrowth of radicalization adversely affects the peace,prosperity and wellbeing of the global Muslim community and must be resisted byreviving the true spirit of the Greater Jihad. This, in light of the Qur’an’skey enunciations of its concluding phase, needs be attained through cultivationof exemplary conduct and behaviour and excellence in good deeds and all formslawful pursuits in positive competition with the global community (49:13,5:48), and broad compliance with the social, moral and ethical paradigms of theQur’an as it had directed the Meccans in the Prophet’s era (25:52 above).” Think forward (how to uplift the conditions of the Muslims by aninternal reform), avoid harsh or offensive words, and treat all victims ofviolence – Hindus and Muslims alike, and be courteous to all commentators – Hindusand Muslims alike. If you disagree with me, fine. Don’t drag me into anyfurther debate on this issue please. And finally, plase read my articlesclosely and post your comment. If you find they are any good, circulate themaround and encourage others to read and comment.
Ref: . The Qur’anic Perspective on Jihad and Greater jihad: SOSto Global Muslim Community
• Languishing in stagnancy ofSymbolism and Ritualism, deluded by a quixotic dream of world dominationthrough militant jihad – the Muslims have turned misfit among thecivilizations of the world and urgently need a major paradigm shift in theirreligious thoughts to the dynamic spirit of the Greater Jihad. http://newageislam.com/islamic-sharia-laws/muhammad-yunus,-new-age-islam/the-qur’anic-perspective-on-jihad-and-greater-jihad--sos-to-global-muslim-community/d/6855
I am in full agreement with Ms Sadaf and in fact, I was going to write that major effort of our computer savvy youngsters should be to collect facts on events such as Godhra to nail the lies of the Hindu fanatics. These facts are available in pieces in newspapers; magazines, internet, and some can be constructed with incisive logic, and then put together as a comprehensive readable piece. I can tell such writers, that people from the mainstream media will come to this website to refer to such write-ups because this area of journalism is completely barren, THAT IS THE AREA THAT COVERS “MUSLIM VIEWPOINT ON MAJOR NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL EVENTS” AFFECTING MUSLIM LIFE (nothing to do with Quran or Hadiths). Rather, on religion and philosophy the younger members of Muslim community can afford to defer their inclination to take a committed stand, because life has to go on in their case much longer, and they will have (at least they should have) many opportunities to consider and reconsider their stance. It is enough to have some basic understanding on fundamentals of religion and proceed to work in other areas of great concern. It is for the elders of the Muslim community to reinterpret religion in a way that life should become pleasant for the youngsters, and if for this they have to pick up a struggle with the religious establishment, they should do it wherever they are. That is why I had once suggested that no harm if writers and commentators write names in this style Manzoorul Haque (60), no.60 suggesting the approximate age. This is not to suggest that younger people cannot and should not write on religious matters, only when they do so they should be subtly aware that elder members of the Muslim Family are also listening. In any case they have a better task at hand to do which I feel people of my age find much more difficult. I had been thinking to reply to this gentleman who claims to be logic personified, but some health setback has been coming in my way. Any way I am writing few words on this with almost touching references of few important leads on the whole story.
To Mr. Logic I have to say, that as a Muslim I feel very aggrieved to hear or see the death or disaster of members of Hindu community. We have been living together in this country for ages and I can bet there is not one Hindu (even if he is a Panda) who does not have a Muslim friend and there is not one Muslim (even if he is a Maulvi) who does not have a Hindu friend. Do you think I will rejoice if a member of the family of my friend dies? Is it your sense of logic? As such those Hindus and their family members who died in the Godhra train burning deserve my highest sympathies, and I totally condemn the acts of those criminals (even if Muslims) that led to this disaster. But I have to add that my condemnation has to be proportionate to the degree of their ‘mens rea’, else I will become unjust. It is therefore necessary to be judicious in finding the culprit, in investing the culpability and in apportioning the blame, and then being proportionate in the act of retribution/punishment. If I belong to a group, which is governing at the Centre of the country and in the State where it happened, then I should have the necessary confidence to be able to bring the culprits to book by a judicial process. Gujarat carnage was not (NOT) needed by way of sentencing the whole Muslim community. The fact that this happened should be seen as an event, quite independent from Ghodhra train burning and Hindus must introspect why does their community behave in such a barbaric way?
Now about the Godhra train burning case. The facts are:
1. Burning of the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express took place on February 27, 2002. The train was late by five hours.2. Kar Sevaks in large numbers in sleeper coaches had been going to and coming from Ayodhya a substantially distantly located place. In the coach of 71 persons 250 were travelling – with or without ticket. Since it was not an exclusive bogey for kar sevaks there is reason to believe that some normal passengers were also travelling, such as at least one fauji who was able to escape out and speak of the incident. Just think of the plight of those normal passengers.3. Out of 250, 59 persons died who could not escape. Only very few were Kar sevaks among the dead, others were normal passengers with families and all. 4. There was a quarrel at Godhra between kar sevaks and vendors who were local Muslims. This quarrel had become regular feature because the kar sevaks used to shout “Babar ki aulad” type of slogans. There is reason to believe that local Muslims were agitated and so a good contingent of GRP used to be posted on arrival of this train. On the fateful day they had lathi-charged also to disperse the local crowd. There is reason to believe that some local elements had also organized to teach a lesson to the kar sevaks. They had pulled the chain after the train had moved from the platform. There was a fight on the cards. But, so far this was in the nature of a community/business/local vs. outsider/ passenger vs. vendor quarrel, which could take any shape no doubt.5. The circumstances were fatal because most insecure travelling was also taking place not only in S.6 but in all the sleepers. The kar sevaks had been cooking as well, in the coaches, which sounds logical because of the distance involved, and non-availability of food for such large numbers. When such unauthorized elements travel in a train in India on occasions of mela, mass rallies, even competitive exams, we all know how disciplined these elements are.6. After lathi-charge, the crowd had been pelting stones on the train so the doors and windows had been locked from inside and the doors blocked by passengers by their luggage.7. The fire occurred in the bogey no S-6, (Another fire incident had also taken place in some other bogey before Godhra which had been extinguished) because of the pandemonium inside, and with so much inflammable luggage, it became uncontrolled. In any crowded mêlée it is difficult to control events. When the fire took place, there were police personnel outside and a whole lot of people. There is reason to believe, that the crowd of civilians/locals (incidentally Muslims) outside was not sympathetic to the kar sevaks, until the point of time when it might have dawned on them that many lives were at stake. By that time, it was too late for the crowd, the railway staff, or the police to help save all. Some, especially the weaker lot, were most unfortunately destined to die in that most tragic incident.8. The guilt of the Muslim crowd is there, but it does not attach to the degree of murder. However from this point onwards, the politics of Narindra Modi took a quantum jump from ‘sending kar sevaks to Ayodhya’ to ‘ avenging the death of kar sevaks’. A man of the politics of Narinder Modi and a party of the politics of BJP could not sit back without exploiting the opportunity to the hilt. The statutory within-48-hour enquiry was not carried out by the DRM and evidence was allowed to be lost. Later the bogy was auctioned as scrap in a record short time and evidence was allowed to be lost so that Justice Bannerji could not see it.9. Initial police investigations indicated that it could have been a spontaneous riot situation. But the investigation was transferred to a committed SIT team by Narinder Modi. Investigation is an absolute privilege of the State government under law, and only on the continued struggle of Human Rights Groups, the Supreme Court had changed the head of the SIT belatedly, but by that time substantial part of the investigation had already been done by the crooked Investigation Team. 10. Ashish Khaitan, a journalist working for Tehelka magazine, had done a sting operation on many people, including witnesses of the Sabarmati Express train carnage and people suspected to have played a role in the communal riots of 2002. In the secretly recorded video, two star witnesses of the train burning case, Prabhatsinh Patel and Ranjit Patel, were shown as saying that they were given money to give a statement that six accused of the case had come to get loose petrol from Kalabhai petrol pump on the night of February 26, 2002. 11. In sentencing some accused to death, the trial court had relied upon the statement of the two key witnesses of the case, Prabhatsinh Patel and Ranjit Patel. The Supreme Court-appointed Special Investigation Team (SIT), which had taken over the investigation of the case, had relied on Khaitan's testimony and his CDs in the trial of other cases but it had shown no inclination to accept it as evidence during the hearing of the Godhra train carnage case.12. The trial started in Feb 2002 and ended in Feb 2011- that is after nine years. A total of 94 Muslim accused remained in jail during the period as under trial prisoners. Then at the end of trial, 63 persons were found innocent who had been falsely implicated and were therefore allowed freedom. The remaining 31 accused were held guilty on two major counts — Section 120B (criminal conspiracy) and 302 (murder) of the Indian Penal Code. Out of 31, a record 11 accused have been sentenced to death and the remaining for life. 13. Based on conspiracy, so many accused have been sentenced for death and life imprisonment without any proof of attack, but the main key accused, Maulvi Umarji who was accused of organizing the conspiracy has been let off for want of evidence! 14. Report of J. Banerjee Committee suggests that it was an accident because of violation of safety rules.15. Muslims have a legitimate grudge for having been highly victimized by the State agencies in Godhra train burning incident and they are entitled to this perception, which is based on truth.
Note: some of the facts and figures might not be exactly correct being approximations, but not with an intention to pervert facts. If mistakes are pointed out, I stand corrected. I had to do this hurried job without any infrastructural support and in quite adverse circumstances.
Mr Yunus: Ref: were Hindus persecuted by Muslims;
I found your claim that Muslim rulers loved their Hindu subjects and did them no wrong to be quite bizarre. I am posting a link for your perusal. Some of the accounts are by the kings themselves, or by their own historians, so they are written well before independence. Even if only half of what is written here is true, it flies in the face of your assertion that nothing bad ever happened to Hindus during Muslim rule.
However. I do agree that past hostilities should not be used as an excuse for future hostilities. If that is to happen, Muslims must stop provocative acts like planting bombs and burning trains. They must learn to live and let live. Why is it that wherever there are Muslims living with non-Muslims, there is a problem, world over?
Dear Mr. Muhammad Yunus Sir thanks for finding my response on the other article insightful. But I am here to tell you that on one hand you are asking me not to waste my time arguing over history of Gujarat, and on the other hand you are indulging into that very thing and which should not waste your time, and honestly, more valuable than mine. Sir you should be concentrating on dispelling myths that surround the various interpretation of ayats as you are really good at doing that and leave these mushrooms for me to handle. I actually give you covering by keeping occupied these guys who are basically trolls.
Aren’t they trolls? Do you or I go on Jansanghi website to comment and poke our nose, but these guys have overwhelming interest in the lives of Muslims and they are here on New Age Islam- war ‘within’ Islam, to see the internal quarrels but while doing so when they get some free slap for interfering then they cry hoarse.
They wonder why there is no mention of the plight of Kashmiri Pandits, then let me give then an answer which will keep them more occupied. There is no mention of Kashmiri Pandits because the heir of Kashmiri Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, isn’t complaining. Muddayee sust hai aur Gawah saale sab chust hain. Otherwise this Kashmiri Pandit would have become Prime Minister by now, yet the fellow is not complaining. If their tear doesn’t stop for Kashmiri Pandit then let them make Rahul Gandhi Prime Minister. Or if they see this Pandit with more than required Paanditya, then let them make Varun Gandhi as Prime Minister. Sabki naani marne lagegi, specially Modi’s who is dreaming of becoming Prime Minister even when a Kashmiri Padit, aala nasl, aala khandaan, is available in their camp.
As for Satwa, he is a fraud. Posing as an intellectual he is a low caste Marathi Manus, a drop out, and earns a living as RSS agent to infiltrate websites like these. For secular logic, I haven’t any concrete information as yet, but most probably he is a high caste Hindu, and just that. Yes, he is convent educated as well. Since he doesn’t involve into personal attacks, he is likely to not indulge into anything other than issues. Or may be he will turn wild but occasionally.
Secular Logic’s hypothetical query about Pakistan is actually not hypothetical in the sense that we are aware of the atrocities on Hindus of Pakistan by Muslims of Pakistan, but why should Muslims of India be hanged or blackmailed if they aren’t unable to hang a single Pakistani staying with thath baat and high security in India in Aurther Jail? When Mr. Logic says he ‘hears’ only deafening silence, then I suspect that he must have forgotten his fingers inserted in his ears. Anything is possible logically. Why not he suggest one or two or several ways to let us know what does he expect Indian Muslims to do? And how best can they become loud enough to be audible even when his fingers remain inserted in his ears?
As I have already said to him, ki shak ko koi ilaj na hai beta, and I am sure his mind has become unrepairably corrupt and you have no other way but to quell him.
His demand about knowing what happened in Godhra is OK, but what is not OK is his rejection of the Banerjee report which says nothing sort of that happened at all and it was pure conspiracy by Modi Govt. to polarize the masses and win an election desperately need to be won after poor performance of the Govt. in handling post Earth-quake rehabilitations. But since he is habitual to not buy such a report just as he doesn’t buy Sri-Krishna committee Report or Rajinder Sachar Report. He will buy, of course Jansanghi reports.
If Logic really had some logic with him, then he would have thought that how come only one side, Hindus are right and Muslims are wrong everywhere. And if not then can he cite any example where Hindus were wrong and Muslims right? I am sure his intestines will come out if he pressure more than his capacity but he will not be able to produce any single example.
As for my comment where I mentioned of Ganpati, let me be frank to tell you that I do not believe in appeasing Hindus and so I say it loud and clear that I damn care of their lifeless idols. However I just do not disrespect these only because someone else has reverence for it. My comment was surely in passing and I did not mean to hurt Hindu sentiments. I have hundreds of Hindu friends and am popular among them and I speak to them the way I write things here and the usage even by Hindu friends is so common that I know it is not offensive. An example is: Aise Ganpati ban ke baithe rahne se kaam nahi chalega, kuchh haanth pair dulana padega.
@Secular Logic. With the psydonym you assume you must understand, the mob has no reasoning. It can be instigated to acts of brutality by rumour or by actual exposure to an of terror by the ‘others,’ or roused by a clever politician, or emotionally indoctrinated over time, or religiously inspired or for whatever reason on earth – however unfounded, and if not timely controlled, it can go to any limit in bearing down upon a perceived enemy.
The problem with some people is that, they fail to understand that, in case of Gujrat, state government could have immediately mobilized its police or paramilitary set up to quell the violence, which it did half heartedly after several days.
The truth is the state machinery’s and local politicians’ macabre silence over the most inhuman and barbaric atrocities that was being committed under their very nose upon innocent Muslim civilians all across the city with all escape routes blocked shows a trait of sadism that will go down the history as a dark and indelible spot, no matter how much your intellectuals defend or underplay or stereotype it. If you compare this with a run of the mill act of terror, you shut my mouth after what I have already said on the issue in my last comment. I don’t want to repeat as it is so axiomatic that anybody capable of logical thinking hardly needs to be told twice. Rather than talking about compensating the victims whose lands have been forcibly and unlawfully occupied by others and who have lost their kith and kin under most brutal circumstances, you are comparing it with Kashmir issue or asking a question whose answer nobody has: Why did the Muslim mob burnt the train in the first place.
I answer you. They or the elements in the mob who did so, must have been simply crazy and criminals of the highest order. But doe that justify a far larger mob to kill and burn alive as many Muslim, men, women and children they could lay their hands upon with state machinery looking the other way – for days and nights together? I am really speechless sir. Please search your soul and don’t tell me that the Muslims also killed the Hindus in the past or in Bangladesh. If you believe in penalizing a man for the crimes of his grandfather or cousin, you are not deserving of the epithet you chose as pseudonym.
I am sorry if I have offended you, but it pains me to see a people pushing another innocent group into a pit of fire and then justifying it by ‘secular logic’. It is like America waging a just war against Iraq suspecting that they had WMDs. I can only say, God help you and all those who try to justify or underplay or seek out the reason for any act of terror – be it against the Kashmiri Hindus /Hindu pilgrims burnt alive on the train in Gujrat or the Muslims killed and burnt alive and uprooted from their home and hearth en-masse under the eyes of the State Machinery its aftermath. Only those inspired with hatred and wanting of humane logic (the evil have their own warped logic) will compare the two or try to justify either. And if, in historical perspective, the Muslims did act the way the Hindu mobs acted in Gujrat, how has the Hindu civilization survived.
Don’t tell me that the Muslims did not have sophisticated weapons. They had as sharp swords and as heavy axes as the mob of Gujrat, and they were quite significant numerically if you go by the combined Indo-Pak population. I don’t want to offend you and may be I am sucking you up into my generalization without knowing your heart for you may say things for arguments sake that may be perceived differently by others.
Anyway, I do not think the matter is worthy of any further debate. Our debate should focus on how we can be better friends as two faith communities and help each other and live in peace and harmony, rather than bitter enemies that we are bound to be if we twist history around to show that during the Muslim rules, the Hindus were brutalized, and so now it is their turn in the natural scheme of things. Quote any Indian historian worth his name from the copy of a book printed before partition to make your point. Later editions could be doctored.
Sadaf, I sincerely belief in the following words of Vivekananda "world will take care of itself and you take care of yourself". Further i could observe careful avoidance of yours with regard to Kashmir. If what is happening in Kashmir is freedom fight and everything is justified, then what is happening in Gujarat is identity freedom and everything is justified.
In fact that is the reason; congress could not break the Modi’s regime as people can clearly see the double standard of congress and the minority. This forum jumps up and down when Muslim is victim and otherwise ignores the remaining and any person with normal intellect can see through the double standard.
Whatever way we look at the Gujrat carnage, subjecting a minority civilian population to mob violence over a protracted period of time, blocking all escape routes, killing them mercilessly and burning them alive with the state machinery standing by has no parallel in Indian history.
It cannot be compared with a run of the mill act of terror in which a small number of terrorists kill innocent civilians to achieve a political goal or protest against injustice, and they are immediately chased away by the law-enforcers and the victims are immediately taken care of. I think we should search our souls and pray that a carnage of the magnitude and duration as the Gujrat episode never happens again. Had a blood spilling of this magnitude happened targeted at the Hindus during the 500 years or so of Muslim rule in India, its demography would have changed drastically as in the New Continents.
Lets accept the truth, however bitter, do not implicate the entire Hindu community in it, and forget and forgive, and we have conscience, see to it that those affected are compensated and those who were behind it are punished. It is in the interest of both the Hindus and the Muslims to re-establish the cordial relation of the past era lest they risk the death and destruction - no matter which side has the greater share of it - for they all come from the same stock and are distant cousins. Both sides must remember that when two sides engage in modern warfare, the third side that watches them is the biggest beneficiary especially when each go to it to buy arms.
It is no surprise for me that you are surprised. It was intelligence failure and the whole department should have been transferred to govt rest houses kitchen sections to peel onions and sit gossiping there. And that you liked that dangling rotten bait that you are still make rounds here.
But why I dangled that bait is a trade secret which I can even announce it here but I know, you have tasted blood and you are not going to leave easily.
My agenda is to keep you here to act as fuel for more debate so that kuchh dhaar aayega, kuchh sudhaar bhi aayega, in charbi chadhe dimagon mein. You are so so. Not too brilliant not as stupid as Satwa. Jab tak ke liye usse kaam chalana pad raha tha.
But I respect Satwa for the hard work he has put in to run New Age Islam.
Now it is your job to run the show. Be like Ghulaam.
Now coming back to the issue, don't you see I am not blaming the entire Hindu community for killing Muslims and therefore I don't see things in those pedestrian terms that entire Muslims were responsible for burning that coach. But surely as a keeper of Law and order, it was the responsibility of the Administration to contain whatever happened immediately and let not Police become Hindu to kill or abet in killing of Muslims. Same thing is applicable on a cop who is at home a Muslim, but when on duty, it is his/her job to act in impartial way. Read Premchand's Panch Parmeshwar to understand this concept of being neutral, impartial and duty bound when on duty.