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Debating Islam (23 Aug 2014 NewAgeIslam.Com)

'Prophet Mohammad Himself Justified and Practiced Killing of Innocent Children, Women, Civilians': Taliban Scholar Tells Pakistan Army Official Quoting Hadees From Bukhari To Justify Terrorism - 4





  Transcription of a video of an ideological debate between a Taliban Scholar and Pakistani Army Official based on the translation from Urdu in the superimposed text in Pakistan government video.

{Being presented so that Ulema (Islamic scholars) may know how Islam is being distorted in extremist discourse and defend Islam's peaceful nature by refuting the allegations against Quran (words of God), Hadees (sayings of the Prophet), Sunnah (examples, practices) of the Prophet and Shariah (Islamic Law).}

By New Age Islam Edit Desk

23 August 2014

Pakistani Army Official: (tries to laugh off embarrassingly) let’s talk about something else. Your leaders and elders came out in the media with broad chest and took the responsibility of bomb blasts in Moon market Lahore and attack on the school bus in Kamra. Can you confirm that you carried out these bomb blasts?

Taliban Scholar: Alhamdulillah, we accept the responsibility of Kamra attack because that was a military school. If there were any children killed in that attack, then obviously some children may be killed while killing the adults.

I explain to you the Usool of Fiqh (principles of Islamic jurisprudence) that it is the target and the intention that matter; otherwise what is the point to fight the war anyway? If the actions of Prophet (pbuh) are of any importance and standard for you, then listen that Prophet (pbuh) flooded the whole area during the battle of Ta’if and fitted a catapult upon the enemy. Obviously, women and children were killed during that battle. Also it is narrated by Sa’ab bin Jassama (ra) that Prophet (pbuh) asked them to carry out a night raid on certain tribe. Sahaba (ra) said: "O messenger of Allah (pbuh), (among them are their women and children) Sahih Bukhari, Kitab ul Jihad, Hadees 3012. Prophet (pbuh) replied: "They are part of them". That is why we are proud of the operation that we carried out in Kamra in which we destroyed the military school. But you are repeating the allegations of bombing the markets again and again. It would be better if you accept the responsibility of those attacks yourself because Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan and its central spokesman condemned those attacks through media and by distributing the pamphlets.

Pakistani Army Official: So you are saying that you proudly accept the responsibility of attack on school children in Kamra.

Taliban Scholar: The Ahadees that I mentioned above, do they not appear authentic to you?

Pakistani Army Official: (becomes angry) What I am mentioning to you.....hmm..... If Prophet (pbuh) was alive today and Allah (swt) had shown him what his Ummah was doing. When you kill women and children, do you think Prophet (pbuh) had patted your back Nauzobillah and said well done, you have done a great job?

Our Prophet (pbuh) was given the title of Rahmatul lil Aalameen (blessing for all the worlds) and who was stoned by the people of Ta’if to the extent that his shoes were filled with blood. Allah (swt) said to him,”O Prophet, if you order I will crush the town of Ta;\’if by dropping a mountain over them,” Prophet (pbuh) said no, because there were women and children present inside this town. Prophet (pbuh) prayed for their guidance rather than their destruction. Is that true or not? You are attributing strange kinds of narrations to Prophet (pbuh) who was Rahmatul lil Aalameen (blessing for the worlds) and you think that he would have been very pleased with your actions of killing women and children. I think you have gone into very deep misguidance.

Taliban Scholar: So in other words, do you want to say that I am making up the above mentioned Ahadees myself? I mentioned the incidence of Ta’if war and narration of Sa’ab bin Jassama (ra) above. Do you think I made up these stories myself? The incidence of Ta’if that you mentioned is related to Da’wah. This has nothing to do with fighting. The rulings of war are different from the rulings of other circumstances.

Probably you don’t have the knowledge about these issues that is why you are making mistakes.

The circumstances of general peace and war are different. In general circumstances, Prophet (pbuh) forbade to kill the women and children but if the operation cannot be accomplished without causing a risk to them, then in that situation, the Hadees narrated in Bukhari and Muslim by Sa’ab bin Jassama is very clear in which Prophet (pbuh) said that it would not matter if some women and children were killed while killing the Mushrekeen as they were part of Mushrekeen. This is Hadees of messenger of Allah (pbuh) and he deployed catapult in Ta’if and in that incidence every kind of people including women and children were killed. Then what are you talking about? Do you consider yourself more intelligent than the messenger of Allah (pbuh)?

Pakistani Army Official: Prophet (pbuh) laid the siege of that town for one week. Read the history carefully and please do not try to misguide others. After one week Prophet (pbuh) finished the siege and returned to Makkah. Am I not right?

Taliban Scholar: (Stressing) Prophet (pbuh) specifically fitted the catapult during the siege of Ta’if and he also flooded the fields of enemy.  That is how Prophet (pbuh) dealt with them. What history are you taking about then? If you have any book of Seerah or history, you can consult it for your satisfaction.

Pakistani Army Official: (becomes angry) Hang on, hang on! I will tell you another Hadees. You are saying that Prophet (pbuh) ordered to kill women and children. Let me tell you another Hadees to counter this claim of yours. Prophet (pbuh) said, “If you come across any of my Hadees that contradicts Qur’an; just throw that Hadees against the wall as it can't be my Hadees. I repeat again, Prophet (pbuh) said, “If you see any my Hadees contradicting Qur’an, just throw that Hadees against the wall,”

Pakistani Army Official: (After a brief pause).... The Hadees that you just mentioned; which book did you take it from?

Taliban Scholar: You can find this Hadees in Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and in every major book of Hadees or you can ask any scholar.....

Pakistani Army Official: Prophet said that if any of my Hadees goes against Qur’an then be sure that it can’t be my saying. Now Qur’an says not to kill women and children and you are saying that Prophet (pbuh) gave the orders in contradiction to Qur’an. This means that Hadees can be weak and its narrator may have some problem. Do you accept this?

Taliban Scholar tries to say something.

Pakistani Army Official: No, you tell me first. The Hadees you mentioned that Prophet (pbuh) asked to throw his Hadees against the wall if it contradicts Qur’an; prove to me that such a Hadees actually exists.

Taliban Scholar: This Hadees is present in every major book of Hadees, Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. I don’t have any book opened in front of me; otherwise I would have given you the exact reference as well. You can ask any scholar about this Hadees and if you are sincerely in search of truth, you will definitely find it, Insha’Allah.

Pakistani Army Official: No, this is nothing but only your concoction. No such Hadees exists in any book. You will have to prove this Hadees on which you based your argument. You may bring your evidence tomorrow in our next session.

Taliban Scholar: I can add further that Prophet (pbuh) gave direct orders to kill the women who used to oppose Prophet (pbuh) and sang defamatory songs against him. Name of one such woman was Esma (spells clearly) and Prophet (pbuh) got her killed through a blind Sahabi Abu Unais RA. Similarly Prophet (pbuh) ordered to kill two slave girls who used to sing blasphemous songs against the Prophet (pbuh). Those girls were wrapped in the covering of Ka’ba but even then Prophet (pbuh) ordered to kill them. How can you possibly say that Prophet (pbuh) did not kill the women during the time of war? Yes those women were not killed who were not opposing Islam. I am stressing again and again that there is difference between the rulings of war and other circumstances. It is allowed according to Shariah and Seerah of Prophet (pbuh), to kill those women who come out to oppose and fight against Islam.

Pakistani Army Official: Are you trying to say that school children of Kamra came out to fight against you, holding Kalashnikovs in their hands?

Taliban Scholar: You are repeating again and that they were children. We know very well what kind of children were they? Those "children” were 18 to 20 years old. When we killed the son of Iftikhar Hussain (a Murtad minister allied to Americans), he also started crying that Taliban killed his “child”, even though he was 29 or 30 years of age. The people killed in Kamra were not children, and mind you, I am stressing again and again that the target and intention are the main factors in executing an operation, not the results. Otherwise how would you explain the actions of the Prophet (pbuh) such as fitting the catapult in the war of Ta’if, flooding the fields, burning and cutting the trees etc. All such actions are forbidden in other circumstances but during the war they are allowed.

Pakistani Army Official: (Mumbles) I don’t want to hear any rubbish against Prophet (pbuh) . Whatever you are saying will be investigated. (Shouts abruptly) Have fear of Allah, tell me which Kafir and Mujahid was hiding in that school on which you were firing your catapult? Did you see Kalashnikovs or grenades in the hands of those children?

Taliban Scholar: I am trying to explain that our targets over there were not children. Rather we were targeting those military instructors who teach in your cadet and military institutions. Of course they are our enemies and we don’t have any doubt about that. It is not necessary that every enemy should hold a Kalashnikov. We know that many of our enemies are active against u through their pens, such as journalists etc. Our prime targets in that school were the senior officers and your media is trying to cover up their deaths.

Pakistani Army Official: That attack in Kamra was carried out on a school bus in which many small children died. Do you see the young children as your enemies? Secondly you said that you do not carry out bomb blasts in market places then why don’t you say that may curse of Allah and all his angels be upon those who do suicide attacks in the markets.

Taliban Scholar: Sorry, I am not obliged to obey your orders to curse this person or that. You should rather curse yourself; that would be more appropriate. You said that we carried out attack on the school bus. We know very well, how many adults and how many children were there in that bus. Alhamdulillah, we plan our operations after a great deal of thinking and planning. We are not like you people who handed over Afia Siddiqui to Americans, who specifically target the mosques in the tribal areas and who murder the Muslims.

You are trying to prove yourself so clean; just analyse your actions; have a peep inside your own vest. You are missing the little school children of Kamra so much; do you not remember the innocent little kids of Lal Masjid (Red Mosque, Islamabad) whom you murdered, who were busy in the remembrance of Allah SWT there. You knew very well that those children were present in the Masjid and you did not kill them by mistake. In other countries, special arrangements are made to evacuate the civilians and children from the areas of conflict. Women and children are either given safe passages or evacuated after making them unconscious by some gas. All these crimes are in front of you; still you are repeating the same mantra of Kamra all the time. What kind of justice is this?

(To be continued)

URL of Part 1: http://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/debating-his-islam-with-pakistan-army,-taliban-scholar-asks-why-do-you-have-any-doubt-that-we-consider-pakistanis-kuffar,-cites-prophet-s-demolition-of-masjid-e-zarrar-of-munafiqs-to-justify-terrorism--1/d/98645

URL of Part 2: http://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/new-age-islam-edit-desk/-we-kill-you-pakistanis,-thinking-we-are-killing-americans,-we-have-sinned-by-accepting-your-and-american-help-in-anti-soviet-jihad,--taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official---2/d/98664

URL of Part 3: http://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/quiad-e-azam-was-an-ismaili-shia,-a-kafir;-is-pakistan-his-property;-it-is-our-homeland-and-we-want-to-implement-shariah-of-allah-in-our-homeland,-taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official---3/d/98684

URL: http://www.newageislam.com/debating-islam/by-new-age-islam-edit-desk/-prophet-mohammad-himself-justified-and-practiced-killing-of-innocent-children,-women,-civilians---taliban-scholar-tells-pakistan-army-official-quoting-hadees-from-bukhari-to-justify-terrorism----4/d/98703



  • sunna is not hadith as  ! even if we accepted those ahadith as true  who says that conduct in war by the prophet constitutes 'sunna' ? from an espitemological usul ul fiqh  perspective all those hadith do not yield certainty and cannot be accpeted as part of  normative teachings . also there are numerous other ahadith which explicitly  killing of non combatants in war situations including monks. this is one of the major authorities on this issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afifi_al-Akiti
    By adis - 8/24/2014 8:27:59 PM

  • Dr. M. A. Haque and Mohammad Ali Saheban, Please don't shoot the messenger. In this day and age, it doesn't even serve the purpose you have in mind. In the age of internet, you don't even need to go to a madrasa or an Islamic studies department in a university to access all Islamic literature.

    The purpose of posting this conversation between a Taliban Aalim and a Pakistan Army Official as well as other articles exposing the radical extremist ideology is to show you what your blind faith in Hadees as authentic sayings of the Prophet is doing, what your blind faith in the universality of all verses of Quran is doing, what your blind faith in the divinity of Sharia is doing. It is this blind faith of yours that is taking our children away and turning them into bombs. There is an army of Muslim suicide bombers available wherever someone needs them and has the necessary logistics at his disposal.

    I am saying this because none of you have said that the hadees this Taliban scholar is quoting is either a misquotation or a fake, fabricated, concocted hadees.

    The correct approach is that of Mr. Raihan Nezami who straight away says that the Taliban scholar is quoting a concocted hadees.

    Even if you haven't read hadees books, a little research on the net will tell you that the hadees is not a misquotation. You will find the following and much more:

    Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:
    The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256)


    It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: They are from them. (Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4321)

    It is narrated by Sa'b b. Jaththama that he said (to the Holy Prophet): Messenger of Allah, we kill the children of the polytheists during the night raids. He said: They are from them. (Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4322)

    Sa'b b. Jaththama has narrated that the Prophet (may peace be upon him) asked: What about the children of polytheists killed by the cavalry during the night raid? He said: They are from them. (Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4323).

    Don't ask me to ban Quran and Hadees from New Age Islam.

    The Deobandi madrasa where this Taliban scholar studied did not give him wrong information. He is not giving us wrong information about hadees. Neither the Saudi-Wahhabi-Deobandi text books nor this Taliban aalim has concocted this hadees. It was concocted long ago, authenticated by all the great imams like Bukhari, Muslim and others and is believed by nearly all Muslims to be true.

     It is this blind belief of Muslims in the divinity and sanctity of Hadees that is one of the sources of extremism. The original creators of Islamist terrorists, the United States, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan merely used these hadees books and our blind faith in them.  They did not write these books. They did not create Bukhari and Muslim and other imams and their authenticated hadees books. They did not create our blind and idiotic faith in them. They used it for their purpose.

    So if you want to end extremism, if you want to save your children from turning into bombs, go to the source, your own blind faith in anything that gets associated with religion, examine it and change. Don't shoot the messenger.

    By Sultan Shahin - 8/24/2014 7:29:51 PM

  • Dr. Haque is right. Defamation of Islam has become a cottage industry. NAI surely can have a better mission.
    By Ghulam Mohiyuddin - 8/24/2014 1:44:27 PM

  • I do not understand why you find only these inflammatory and anti-Islamic things to publish in your magazine. I know 'many' will like them but at what cost?
    Kindly consider.

    By Dr.M.A. Haque - 8/24/2014 10:45:17 AM

  • Taliban is a misguided and un-Islamic outfit which believes on concocted Ahadees and Seerah written by anti-Islamic people so no better logic or reasoning is expected from them to kill the innocent people. They are manipulating the uneducated and weak-minded Muslims to get their task performed in the name of Jihad. It's such a bizarre situation for the mainstream Muslims to handle such things which stimulates the anti-Islamic or anti-Muslim forces to polarize the non-Muslims for the political gains. 
    By Raihan Nezami - 8/24/2014 10:11:14 AM

  • What was a great deal of representing the misunderstanding of Seerah and the Islamic concept of war. It shows also an chaotic state of defending in favor of Islamic peace. How was the poor Pakistani official could not stand against the so-called Talibani scholar. The major problem are being faced by advocates of peaceful Islam expressing its actual image. The big mistake has been done in this writing, which is unfortunately a characteristic of general writing, is to associate the word ''scholar'' to a manipulated person. It leads astray a reader that ohh! he was a scholar means having a sound knowledge of Islam. So his conclusion should be based on Islamic teachings means there is something in Islam provokes Muslims to carry out these activities. The another thing is that you should have not published that type of material which leaves several types of questions whom you are not answering. It also invites people referring those quotations for justifying their interests can be making another jihadi or defaming Islam. My point is that you should have at least added a comment so that a Talibani manipulated mind could break blind grip misunderstanding and a Pakistani official like person find some tranquility in relation to Islam......

    By Mohammad Ali - 8/24/2014 1:29:30 AM

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